Chrabban

need some help finding the best uav for me

25 posts in this topic

Hello, i am new to this forum but have read alot of good information :)

i am probably going to open a business this year or early next year. i want to do 3d mapping, surveying,  gis, inspections and maby maby some real estate (not my main goal but something to do if work is slow)  i am in need of some help, i dont know what what platforme to use. dont know if i shold build one by my self (have one it before but smaler one) go with a smal brand or with something from DJI. i am thinking of using a sony 7R II or a Canon 5DS R  so i can get some realy high pixel/cm ratio and RTK, if something will work better or is easy to use i might go with that. i am trying to fuiger out what everything is going to cost, what i need to lern (maby take some online courses) and do before i start (better to be well prepered then finding out later that i dont know everything) 

i hope that you with more experience might be able to help

have a nice day :)

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Narrow down the playing field?

Are you an RPLS? If not, are you going to hire an RPLS to stamp your deliverables? If not, strike survey from the list.

Next, do you own a copy of AutoDesk, ArcGIS, or other precision mapping software? Do you own a mapping-grade GPS or a total station and know how to use it? If not, are you going to hire someone capable of using the instruments so you can set control on job sites? Do you know how to use AutoDesk, ArcGIS, or other precision mapping software or do you plan on hiring someone to do the output deliverables, processing, and maintenance on your database? Do you own a computer that will run the software, and image processing software that you are going to need to turn out your deliverables? If the answer to any of these is no, and you don't have a spare 7-40,000 sitting around idle, then you might strike GIS and 3D mapping from the list.

Next. What is your specialty? Are you an electrical engineer or have background in the field? A structural engineer? A building contractor? If not, are you willing to hire a specialist in the field that you plan on providing inspections for? Do you know the proper reporting procedures that the industry expects to see when you provide the detailed inspection reports? Where do you stand on inspections now on your list of things to try?

You haven't read the forums yet in detail or you would understand that the real estate market is tough to break into and if you are going to rely on it to be your primary day job then you are in for a disappointment, even if it is not your first choice.

Now that we have scratched the surface on the original business model, you need to pick an area and be a master of it. A jack of all trades is a master at none. In an industry that (while new) is expanding, you need to provide a high-quality service and be a master of it instead of the shotgun approach and hope you hit something. Then and only then can you start making hardware and software choices about what your fledgling business needs to be successful in the marketplace. Before you start spending a lot (and I mean a lot) of hard capitol, you need a better understand of your strengths and limitations and that of the industry you plan on breaking into.

I am not trying to be a wet blanket, but you initial post makes you sound alike a deer in the headlights.

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Posted (edited)

Hello, tnx for the fast and informative awnser :)  hehe and yes i am a deer in the headlights

no i am not a RPLS

i dont have any software and dont know how to use it.

i dont own any gps units and dont know how to use it.

i dont know the proper reporting procedures.  

so as you can see, i dont know mutch and i dont have any equipment. but what i do have is ADD and anything i love/want to do i can lern realy easy. i whold like to do as mutch as possible for myself so i will need to go some extensive education. i will have to hire people in the beginning just to get some things done the right way, i dont want to do things i dont know nothing about.

when it comes to the computer i dont have one right now but i will get one as well, the parts that i have picked comes up to around 3500, do the most software use only the CPU or can they the GPU acceleration as well? 

(and i will take a loan on my apartment (i will still get money from it when i sell it so no need to worry :)

 

 What is your specialty?  well, i have an education in low voltage electronics, but right now i am only instaling alarm systems so dont think i can use that skill.

 

when it comes to  real estate, i might just do a few job a year, ( my sister works with styling homes before they sell it so i might be able to a few jobs with her)

the big question is what i actualy can do, nothing right now it seams? i live in sweden so it might be a bit diffrent from where you live, but what in what feald is it possible to educate myself without having to work with it? i cant quit my day job right now. i have found a education for beginners in GIS that takes 6 month and cost 1k, is that something that i shold look closer at ? and if i am going to do this i realy want to master the feald i am into, and be the "go to person" who can deliver that litle extra that most might not be able to or just dont want to/care to 

sorry again for my  deer in the headlights atitude, but i need to start at some point :) and tnx again for all the awnsers.

Edited by Chrabban

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Posted (edited)

1

Edited by Chrabban

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On 6/9/2017 at 3:04 PM, Chrabban said:

when it comes to the computer i dont have one right now but i will get one as well, the parts that i have picked comes up to around 3500, do the most software use only the CPU or can they the GPU acceleration as well? 

Most software on the market now uses/or can use the CPU and GPU. You need to look at the software and determine which GPU is recommended.

On 6/9/2017 at 3:04 PM, Chrabban said:

 What is your specialty?  well, i have an education in low voltage electronics, but right now i am only instaling alarm systems so dont think i can use that skill.

I keep track of utilities that the university owns as well as the rest of the campus assets outside. I mainly monitor new construction and record utility installation for an accurate picture of what is subsurface.

 

On 6/9/2017 at 3:04 PM, Chrabban said:

the big question is what i actualy can do, nothing right now it seams? i live in sweden so it might be a bit diffrent from where you live, but what in what feald is it possible to educate myself without having to work with it? i cant quit my day job right now. i have found a education for beginners in GIS that takes 6 month and cost 1k, is that something that i shold look closer at ? and if i am going to do this i realy want to master the feald i am into, and be the "go to person" who can deliver that litle extra that most might not be able to or just dont want to/care to 

You can get your CAA? license and gain experience flying your UAS. The more experience you have the better off you are. Learn the UAS, learn the camera and practice and then practice some more. Build a portfolio of your images you can use as marketing for future endeavors. And also, enjoy flying your UAS too.

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when it comes to GPU i will be using 1 or 2 GTX 1080ti (best there is right now) and depending if it uses more cpu i will just go with 1 gtx 1080 and put some extra money on a better CPU, i will also be using m.2 storage (samsung  960 evo) so it will be able to work with the pictures reaastly fast :)

well i can get a CAA but it depends if my drone  will get over 7kg or not. it costs 250 to get certified and then anothere  150 every year. if it get over 7kg it will cost up to 2500 to get it certified but probobly around 1000 and then anouthere 300 every year, that is only if i want to work with it, i will be able to fly with it without being certified. 

is there some realy good online program or anything one can take to get all the information to be able to do mapping and survey ? so i dont need to go a 2 year education without any pay to be able to do what i want to do :P

 

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A lot of the local colleges are offering a 2 year program to teach ArcGIS and the cost is inexpensive. I am completely unaware of the education system on the other side of the Atlantic.

The survey business here requires an internship under a RPLS for ?four? years (any RPLS can feel free to correct me) but I think it also requires a formal education in geomatics as well and then you have to pass the state board exam. Again, not sure what the requirements are in Europe.

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i just found a program thta is 8 weeks on ArcGIS that is free, but what program is the industri standard on when doing mapping and survey?

lets say i am going to do mapping, survey and inspections (i will get people to help me)?  , what is the best drones for the job ? 

as i said in the beginning i think i want to use a sony A7R II or a Canon EOS 5DsR sens they have 42,4mp and the canon 50 mp i think i can get the highest pixel/cm price/preformance  ?

dont know if i shold go with a matrice 600 or build one my self :/ i can still use my diy 450 for a bit o training but i still want to know how mutch everything is going to cost :)

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How much money do you want to spend?

How much time are you prepared to spend developing your knowledge, skills and business?

Your not going to get a realistic answer in an online forum.  Your questions are too vague. 

If your serious about this vocation then you should be prepared to spend more than $10K and two years just to get to the point where you can answer your own questions.

 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Chrabban said:

i just found a program thta is 8 weeks on ArcGIS that is free.

8 weeks gets you a basic course that basically explains the bare minimum skillset to use the software. A certificate program here in the States generally requires 4 hours of instruction in an Intro GIS course, and Intermediate GIS course, Intro Programming course (Python is the latest rage), Intermediate GIS programming course, Advanced GIS course, and either a Geodatabase course or Web GIS course. That is a two year commitment unless the courses are also offered over the summer (roughly 18-24 hours of instruction depending on the classes).

Surveying starts in a university with the theory classes and advanced math you will need and then transitions into an apprenticeship program under the direction of a State licensed RPLS. After you have completed that (potentially another 2-6 years) you are then eligible to take a state exam to gain your own stamp and become an RPLS.

Mapping involves an understanding of the concepts of coordinate systems, spatial projections, and the software side of the equation to bring everything into one platform that a you can present to a layman in a form they can understand. You also need to learn how to set up and use at a bare minimum a GPS unit, and also it helps to have a basic understanding of survey techniques. It also requires a little in the field experience to build upon all the book learning and figure out what works and what doesn't.

Inspections are completely different and requires knowledge of what you are inspecting as well as understanding what you customer needs to make sense of the data that you collect.

Depending upon the laws in your country, you are probably going to need to be licensed to operate a UAS in the National Airspace.

Wanting to do something is easy. Developing the competency to do it is something entirely different and extremely time consuming.

Edited by R Martin

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Av8Chuck 

i did actualy re calc what i can put into it, and i think around 23K 

well it will take the time it needs, but it whold be nice if i can start to lern things and after maby 6-12 month start with something ethere just start training (by my self or get realy basic jobs) 

 

R Martin

hehe yes i figured it was just the introduction, i have looked a bit more on the options on lerning, and there is realy mutch on GIS and it is free :P what i can do is just to copy a "real" education with shorter courses so that itl will amount to the same education, and then maby i will lern some othere things as well. when it comes to inspections i might be able to go some courses to lern the basic stuff about maby cell tower inspections or roof inspections, or take some one from the company i am helping so i will just be the pilot and he will tell me where to go and where to look?

the education we have that is 2 years is the only thing that you need to being able to work as a Surveyer and during the education one will work with pros for around 4 month, if you become a "master" then they make around 240$/h so that is good money :P

i can use a drone for hobby without any licens, but as soon as i am using it for a business i need it and insurens to be able to fly,

and yes i know this wont be super easy and being able to make some quick money, i whold just be happy if i can get the money i will invest in maby 2-3 years, is that possible or shold i be more set on a longer time frame ? 

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2 hours ago, Chrabban said:

and yes i know this wont be super easy and being able to make some quick money, i whold just be happy if i can get the money i will invest in maby 2-3 years, is that possible or shold i be more set on a longer time frame ? 

Given that information I would be a little more conservative and estimate a 3-7 year plan to get started and have the resources you need at your disposal.

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Ooh sorry i miss spelled, i Hope to have the money That i have invested back in 2-3 years from when i start, i can have the money whenever i want :) so it is more about the education part of it that might take time 

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Posted (edited)

hello again, i have just signed up for a basic GIS course as well as ArcGIS so it will be a start, i found a course for wind turbines both a basic one and then one for maintenes so i might understad what i need to inspect if i am going to inspect some :P havent signed up for it yet dough, i dont have time for more right now, 

but when it comes to drones, my first though was DJU matrice 600 sens i can use a DSLR for 50mp pictures, but i dont know how well it will do in the cold wethere here during winter? then i though about matrice 210, it whold be awsome for inspections but if i am doing mapping i can only use DJIs cameras, good ting about though is that i can use 2 cameras at the same time or one on top.  

dose anyone know if the RTK module will be able to geotag the pictures ? 

only bad thing about the matrice 210 RTK is the price here it is around 200k and i will still need cameras and batteries, spare props and more things. 

is DJI a good way to go or is it better to build my own ? or a diffrent brand ? 

Edited by Chrabban

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https://www.birdseyeview.aero/

Carries a wide variety of sensor packages that swap out with the gimbal. The RTK version (for an additional price) ships with an RTK base station which (they claim) does away with the need for site control (although I would set site control anyway as a way to back-check the end product). Generally any camera purpose-built to be used with a UAS is going to write the geodata to the EXIF information on each image.

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5 hours ago, Chrabban said:

hello again, i have just signed up for a basic GIS course as well as ArcGIS so it will be a start, i found a course for wind turbines both a basic one and then one for maintenes so i might understad what i need to inspect if i am going to inspect some :P havent signed up for it yet dough, i dont have time for more right now, 

but when it comes to drones, my first though was DJU matrice 600 sens i can use a DSLR for 50mp pictures, but i dont know how well it will do in the cold wethere here during winter? then i though about matrice 210, it whold be awsome for inspections but if i am doing mapping i can only use DJIs cameras, good ting about though is that i can use 2 cameras at the same time or one on top.  

dose anyone know if the RTK module will be able to geotag the pictures ? 

only bad thing about the matrice 210 RTK is the price here it is around 200k and i will still need cameras and batteries, spare props and more things. 

is DJI a good way to go or is it better to build my own ? or a diffrent brand ? 

Given the lack of sophistication in your questions, I would guess that building your own platform is not a good way to go.  However, it's probably better than buying a DJI...  Why do you think an M210 is $200K?

There's a lot to learn about GIS before you can make good decisions about the platform that will enable your business.  That education is going to take some time so be patient.  There will be a lot more industrial grade purpose built platforms available six months to a year from now.  

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R Martin, tnx for the response, i havent looked at that brand before, realy interesting wing they got, i love that it can make a vertical takeoff. and "only" costs 5990 with RTK not needing GCP is something that whold be awsome but yeah i whold test it out alot before stop using GCP with it. when it comes to the cameras, i think i have read that it is suposed to be posible to take the RTK signal and store it so that it is possible to kross refference the RTG with the pictures. anything you have seen ? can you give some examples on some cameras that is made for UAVs? the only ones i find are above 10k. 

Av8Chuck: i am guessing that you are not a big fan of DJI ? sorry it will be 20K (talked to a store that will sell them) 

yeah there will be alot to lern, but i do think that it whold be possible to make ortophotomaps/3D-mapps and make calculations with just a few days education. sure probobly far ways from a pro but is it so hard? (i dont know so i am actualy asking) ;)

as for a drone that one can build, maby something like this one http://www.dronedynamics.com/skyeye-ranger-y6/  

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2 hours ago, Chrabban said:

 when it comes to the cameras, i think i have read that it is suposed to be posible to take the RTK signal and store it so that it is possible to kross refference the RTG with the pictures. anything you have seen ? can you give some examples on some cameras that is made for UAVs? the only ones i find are above 10k. 

The GPS information is written to the EXIF data in each image along with UAS heading and altitude. I do not know anything about aftermarket cameras. I stick with what the UAS manufacturer offers because I know they will work with the airframe in question.

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16 hours ago, Chrabban said:

Av8Chuck: i am guessing that you are not a big fan of DJI ? sorry it will be 20K (talked to a store that will sell them) 

As for a drone that one can build, maby something like this one http://www.dronedynamics.com/skyeye-ranger-y6/  

I like DJI just fine, I've owned every model of DJI they have produced and right now we have a MAVIC and its a lot of fun.  But I wouldn't recommend them for most professional work.  

14 hours ago, R Martin said:

The GPS information is written to the EXIF data in each image along with UAS heading and altitude. I do not know anything about aftermarket cameras. I stick with what the UAS manufacturer offers because I know they will work with the airframe in question.

Its funny how we all see this differently.  I believe the biggest impediment to DJI's commercial sUAS success is that they are vertically integrated to such a degree that it makes RMartin's statement true.  But what if I need more accurate GPS data than the 5Hz DJI GPS?  Even their 10Hz RTK is too slow and not accurate.  What if I want to use a Canon or a Sony 50Mp camera?  What if I want to use a hyperspectral sensor?  All of thise should work regardless of airframe.       

I am a big fan of Coaxial, Y6 and X8 for their hardware redundancy.  

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okey, yeah i have gotten the same idea that alot of pros dont use them in there work, okey, is 20hz okey or still to slow ?

yes i do think the same, i whold like to not be bound to a spesific camera, i whold like to use a "normal" camera like the sony A7R II 

what do you think about the sky hero spy ?^or do you like something els more?  and if so shold one just go with the biggest frame posible to be able to fit bigger probs and might get a litle more stabile ? 

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I'm not saying this is the case but one of the hardest things to do for newcomers to this industry is getting them to be patient.

Start with how do you want to make money?  Keep in mind that your customers don't really want to pay you for flying a drone.  They want the data the drone collects and depending on how they plan to use that data will determine the level of accuracy and stability required to collect it.

Each of the different verticals you mentioned, "3D mapping, surveying,  GIS, inspections and real estate" are very different.  Gaining a better understanding of what it takes to collect the data and how that data is used will ultimately answer your questions "is 20Hz good enough?" And the need for bigger props.

The way that you determine the drone you need is by reverse engineering the problem your trying to solve with the data it collects.  This is fundamentally the problem with buying "off the shelf drones."   Do you modify your mission objective to fit the constraints of the drone or do you develop a drone that can meet the needs of the objectives?

Not everyone is going to develop their own drones, I get that.  But when your talking about taking other peoples money to provide DAAS, then you need to really understand how the data you collect will be used and how the equipment you use and how you use it effects your customers chances of meeting their objectives.  

 

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Tnx For the awnser :) i have bin thinking and i got anothere tip from someone who is doing mapps, he Said that it is better to just buy a Phantom 4 pro and "take it slow" and lern How to use apps and programs use GCPs (thinking about using Reach RS) make a workflow, he also told me that i Will Be able to do the same type of mapping Jobs as he was (matrice 600 with a Canon 5Ds) it Will just take longer time (taking more pictures at lower latitude, probobly Cant take as mutch wind though) 

is it better to just buy a off the shelf drone for 1500 or trying to build one around that same price point ? 

I am thinking i can get one now, lern alot of How to actualy do things, and doing online course to lern more, still maby taking some jobs during this time, and in 1-3 years building/buying a more capable drone, and by that point i Will know what i want it to have to fitt My needed. What do you Two think, good or bad ide ?? :P 

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You won't be able to build a drone for what you can purchase a P4 for.  And you shouldn't believe people when they say that a P4 is as good as a 50MP 5dS.  

If you want to use a toy drone to learn to fly you have a lot to choose from.  A great drone for honing your aerial photography skills is the MAVIC.  For anyone serious about getting into this industry I always encourage them to build their own drone and gimbal.  That provides you with a much better understanding of how they work, what it takes to do accurate scans and generally makes you a better operator.  

There are a lot of videos, panoramas, and stills on this site.  Go buy a drone that you think you can provide comparable image quality and start flying, shooting and posting your work and hopefully people will give you feedback.  

Its always interesting to me how many "experts" there are ready to tell you what to buy, how to do it, and how good they are at doing it, yet they never seem to post anything.  

Just start flying, filming and posting.  That's what makes you an expert.  

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hehe no probobly not, but 2500-2700? a P4P with some gear cost about 2400, with a sony a6000 shold be possible, using a spy hero y6 sunnysky 4110-25 340kv motors( or T-motors)  15" props , hobbywing ESCs, pixhawk 2.1 (if it is stabil, it is so new on the market that i dont know)  and tattu 16000mha, i am unshure about a gimble cost for the camera though but 200-300 ? 

okey, why is the mavic/mavic pro better then the phantom 4 pro? the size is smaller but how is stability and camera ? 
well i want i "think"  something that i can train with and lern to be a better pilot and lern how to do mapping (camera settings, hight, overlap, software/post and be able to produce a product that i can deliver with "pride" )  and if possible do some smal jobs with mapping while lerning. if i cant do that with a p4p then i shold not use it, but if i can use the P4P/mavic pro, i am a bit to torn. sens it is so easy to just buy a dji product and get it flying, but if i build it myself there is things that can go wrong :P but i can later upgrade it, that i cant do with a P4P or mavic :/
 

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Hello again, i will make some changes to my current 450, putting in a pixhawk 2.1 and i will have to find a good enough camera, just to keep it "cheap" and start trying things out with maping and just getting a hang of it all, doing "serius" flying not just playing, i will have to upgrade my transmitter and reciver,  is Frsky X7 or X9D+ a good choise or is there something better for mapping and inspections ? thinking about controling the gimbal mostly. 

when i know more about what i need i will build my own "high preformance" UAV

and get a good camera like the 5Ds (if that is what i need) :)

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